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Power window control unit
05/07/2003 22:34
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The owner before me had a lot of trouble with someting emtying the batery.
He found out it was electric windows an mounted a switch on power to the window control unit.
Later he found out it was the control unit that was the trouble an replaced it two year ago.
Now I have the same trouble so I have the power to the control unit switched of all time.
Today when I had carpets off from the relay panel i hear clickings of an relay.
The power window control unit was hot .
Messured it got 12v power from another cabel than the thick red that was switched off and varius voltage on other cables.
When I had the unit connected only to the cable with 12v I had 0,6V on all other connections out from the unit.
When the unit got cold the leak vas 0,2V , so it must leak voltage internal depending of temperature.
Opened the unit ( Siemens 79FA400 / Audi 4419592570 ) , smellt a litle burnt but nothing looked liked burnt.
It was two boards full off small electric components and between them a couple off relay´s in it.
Nothing to fix for an mechanical.
Can offcourse get an new unit for 120EURO an try if it should act like this or blow it so it doés .
Anyone out there knowing if it´s a comon problem or if it´s the unit that is the trouble or it´s goes deffective due some other failure.
Bengt
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If its the power window relay unit that you want?
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Re: Power window control unit
[re: steve B]
09/07/2003 22:03
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I could get an new power window unit , if I was sure it is the the problem and if it not should be damaged when I put it in the car.
Since it was replaced two years ago and still keeps drain the battery I would like to know if it´s a common problem that this unit breaks and if someone know what else could cause this behavior
Bengt
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Did you check the wires that go into the drivers door? Often their insulating is damaged and they get in contact with ground.
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I have looked into the rubber boots between the hinge´s on both door´s , and the cable´s in them looks fine.
Bengt
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Jeremy Ward
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Reged: 14/05/2003
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Posts: 202
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Loc: Portland, Oregon (USA)
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I found this article and thought of you:
http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/elec.html#windowrelayclick
I know of at least one person that this has happened to.
Regards,
- Jeremy
1990 V8Q Zyclam
Portland, Oregon (USA)
http://www.MyV8Q.com/
Fun, Fun, Fun auf der Autobahn
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Re: Power window control unit
[re: Jeremy Ward]
25/07/2003 22:45
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Thanks for the link !
I will try to see what happen if i disconnect the wire from central locking/alarm and what happens if I lower the voltage.
Bengt
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Re: Power window control unit
[re: Anonymous]
29/09/2003 22:37
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The link from sjmautotechnik was good but it didn´t help !
I have found out that the "Window Control Unit" drains the battery , maybee not all the time but not only when it starts clicking.
It got power from two wires , a red/green that takes 0,15A and together with a thick red 0,45A.
When it starts clicking it goes between 0,5A-1,5A and it increase when WCU get hot i think. It seems that the clicking is starting when the battery is week.
It sends out 10V to the wire to the "Automatic Window Closing Unit" and can start clicking even if this wire is disconnected (the solution from sjmautotechnik)
It also sends out 6V to "Sunroof Relay/Anti Teft System" .
I will try to find out where the current goes from the WCU.
Annyone out there that have some suggestion !
Bengt
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Investigation and an temporary solution
[re: Bengt Salmose]
05/10/2003 21:19
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This weekend I did a big investigation of how the Power Window Control Unit realy works.
I began with making a multi wire so I could have the PWCU up from the floor an so it would bee easy to disconnect and measure each pin.
I also found some websites with information of how non European Audi owners replaced their simplier PWCU 443 959 257 A with the European D model so they could get more intelligent windows operations.
This is PWCU major functions :
-Supply all windows switches with 12V under different conditons .
-Act as an automatic main switch for driver windows , just as driver has main switches for the other windows.
-There is also some other functions as automatic closing all windows an something that deal with anti teft system that I haven´t figured out yet.
The 12V supply to switches works like this:
When ignition goes on 12V comes to PIN15 then 12V PIN30 goes out to switches by PIN87 .
A timer starts counting down an if not the engine or any switches i touched then 12V out from PIN87 goes down to about 0,3V . (It can bee seen as the light in switches goes off or if measuring current it goes from 0,2A to 0,01A)
As soon as any switches is touched the 0,3V change to 12V and the downcounting starts again. If the engine is running 12V comes to PIN61 and PIN87 output is 12V all time
This is going on until the ignition is off and the drivers door is opened and closed again , monitored by PIN TKI , then output to PIN87 is off.
This is something that sometimes doesn´t work on my PWCU , when it goes down from 12V to 0,3V it hangs in the middle and starts buzzing. In this state it is difficult to get it right again .
It doesn´t help take power or/and off for a short time and it can suddently begin ticking with the other relais in it to. I also once had it staying in 12V state all time to , no mather igition , running engine , door signals.
I haven´t found out what makes this bad state .
The automatic switch for driver window works like this:
There is two input PIN85 and PIN86 that give information of if the driver window switch is activated by the driver. ( it check the voltage each side of window motor )
There is two output PIN87A and PIN87B that can have 12V or GROUND depending if the PWCU wants to run window up or down.
Automatic running can start by tapping window switch , tis is detected as 12V on one of PIN85 or PIN86
If the window is automatic running and the switch is tapped the other direction , then window motor gets 12V on both sides , detected by PIN85 & PIN86 and automatic running can stop.
This automatic running have some conditions to work , and I am not realy sure of how , my owners manual is in German and I can´t understand it so good , and it seems that my PWCU dont act the same all time.
The other function is:
Automatic closing , 12V from PIN87 goes thru an Automatic Closing Realy and is grounded at PINKR , this ACR change the ground wire to 12V to all windows motor except for driver window , that can be controlled by the automatic running function.
How to start this process I havn´t found out , also this by my bad German understanding . But I found out that it an Fuse was missing , Tis fuse wasn´t in the "fuselist" but was located , almost hidden, above all the other fuses ,
Due to the doubt function of my PWCU I desided to not use it . Instead I used a simple relay that gives power to window switches all time engine is running ( could used igition on instead ) . I also had to ground connections from driver windows motor.
This is the connections I made in PWCU socket:
PIN30 by relay switch to PIN87 , activated by PIN61 (or PIN15) through relay coil to ground PIN37 , PIN 87A and PIN87B also to ground PIN37.
Now I have main function on windows and I hope I don´t drain the battery any more. If I find any PWCU on an junkyard in the future perhaps I try I but will not buy another new one.
If anyone have the english version of the owner manual , I would like to read the section of how the power windows automatic running and closing should work
Bengt
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Re: Investigation and an temporary solution
[re: Bengt Salmose]
09/10/2003 14:20
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Hi Bengt,
I have owned a 1989 3.6 for about a year now.
I have several problems with the car and the one you describe here is exactly one of them. The car was at an audi dealers for about 3 months for some general overhaul, new shocks and springs, and some repair and regassing of the climate system. (the last one still doesn't work).
When I came to (finally) pick up the car some 4000 Euro's later(!), the car couldn't even start. They had to put on start cables to get it going. I drove it to a mates house nearby and took out the battery for a recharge,-albeit only over 5 or so hours. The car fired up nicely but when I came back to use the car some 3 days later, with family and all, the battery was completely drained, not even a sqeal. And above all, it had to be on a Sunday! But I was lucky, nearby there was a service station that fortunately sold batteries. Got it mounted and away we went.
But since then, I have not dared leave the car without taking off the negative lead from the battery, which you can imagine is a total pain in the butt since you have to lift the rear seat up all the time. I have however just had the old battery recharged again and stuck it in the trunk of the car. So yesterday I left the battery on just to see if it drains again. Because of course, the old battery could have collapsed so that it won't hold power anymore.(The green light in the battery actually doesn't light up after even 2 days of slow charging). But I have been suspicius about the windows before because sometimes they would work, then all of a sudden they didn't. There doesn't seem to be a problem with that anymore however.
But I will follow this thread from you with great interest so please post your further findings.
On a different note if you can help :
The climate control unit, the audi dealer claimed, doesn't send power out to the blowermotor and hence my climate system doesn't work. They don't fix broken climate control boxes so they suggested I replaced it (1300 Euro's, no thanx!)
Now I want to take the unit out and inspect it, but since the unit is "flushmounted" it looks awfully difficult to remowe. Is there a trick or two about that you could share with me?
And then there is this oscillating gearbox problem....
I read in this forum it very likely is oxygensensor (lambda probe). Where exactly is this located and what does it look like, so I could have a look for myself.
Oh, and last but not least, can you buy a dipstick for the gearbox ??? Never have I seen something so apparently ridiculous that you can't measure your gearbox oil.
Many thanks for all your advice
Frank
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Re: Investigation and an temporary solution
[re: Bengt Salmose]
31/10/2003 16:20
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Hiya - I have a 92 100S4 which uses essentially the same architecture as the V8 (they're al 44's after all!!). I had a similar problem. The car was OK when I parked it. When I came back to it the following morning the batery was flat (not enough juice to pull the starter in). I assumed that the battery had finally died as it had been previously layed up for 8 months although it had been OK for the best part of 3 months general usage. Jump started & drove to a local shop to buy a new battery & when I got back in the car I heard a strange thumping noise & a clattering relay. Upon further inspection the thump was the drivers window trying to close although it was already shut & the clattering was coming from the window control unit (drivers footwell). The window control unit had obviously been opened up before so I ad libbed & used a standard relay to give me power to the window system once the ignition is on. That was around 6 months ago & it has been fine since. I miss my total closure (hold the key in the lock position for 3 secs & it used to roll up all of the windows) & the delayed power cut off after the ignition is turned off but at least I won't get stuck with a flat battery again!!
Stewart.
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Re: Investigation and an temporary solution
[re: Frank Olsen]
10/12/2003 13:18
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Hi Frank!
In Sweden you can by a dipstick for the gearbox at the Audi-service-station, and it costs about 20 EUROS if I remember well!?
For used parts check at the car-cimitary in your country, it saves you quite a lot if you find any usefull parts;-)
Watch out for the window-controls, by time they will get fatigue and you`ll end-up with broken wires in the door...very-very-VERY expensive to repair at Audi-service anyway.
I had problems with my left-front-door-window, finally it got so bad that you could hear crunchy noises in the door when operating the window, and finally I was unable to lock the window. Audi in Sweden wanted 700 EUROS to repair it, and I said NO WAY! Found a used and tested part at a car-cemetery and I left the car at a local little workstation but handy mecanic I know and including part and job was done it costed me just 200 EUROS!
Good luck!
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No battery draining anymore ,Relay from yunkyard !
[re: Bengt Salmose]
31/05/2004 21:32
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Now i have used the temporary ralay solution for halv a year without draining the battery. So I am sure this problem was from the power window relay.
I have found several of an older versions of this relay on yunkyard , but not the one I should have.
Anyone out there that know if 443 951 257 ( without anny letter ) will work i insead of 443 959 257 D wihout anny rewiring in the car . The pinnout is almost the same , but there is som differents , for example , KR is renamed TKII and an additional pin is TKIII
Bengt
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Re: Investigation and an temporary solution
[re: Bengt Salmose]
06/03/2007 20:36
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Hi! Bengt,
I'm Greg, from France.
I don't have the PIN61, or TKI on my 4A0 959 257 (Audi 80 TDI Avant from 1995)
I've upload some pics on a french post....
U have sold the problem?
I want to repair mine.
Thanks.
Greg.
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Re: Investigation and an temporary solution
[re: Bengt Salmose]
06/03/2007 22:24
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I would like to see the Deutsch text about electrical windows explains, in the owner manual... A friend of mine is talking Deutsch, English and French...
Thanks.
Greg.
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Sean K
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Reged: 30/07/2016
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Posts: 16
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Loc: Ireland
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Where is the Power Window Control Unit positioned in the car?
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